hotrodhell

Why does Jesus call God his Father if he is an eternal idea, a manifestation, or simply God in the Flesh? I’m confused are you?

In Apologetics on November 30, 2013 at 6:23 am

trinity ring

John 16:1 “I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.
Joh 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.
Joh 16:3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jesus is teaching the disciples of their future and giving instruction regarding their fate. Then he proclaims his Sonship in referring to God as his father. Then he closes the statement with his distinction “nor me” in this distinction we see their relationship and roles defined as he teaches us regarding his existence. The disciples had no issue with Jesus calling God his Father and with his Sonship, why is that a problem for us as later believers?

And these things will they do unto you,…. Christ here opens the true spring and source of the furious zeal of the Jews, against the apostles, in putting them out of their synagogues, and taking away their lives; it was pure wilful ignorance of the Father and himself;

because they have not known the Father nor me; though they boasted of their knowledge of God; yet they knew him not as the Father and sender of Christ, at least they would not own him as such: nor Jesus as the true Messiah, and sent of the Father, to redeem and save his people from their sins; and since they neither knew the Father, nor Christ, it is no wonder they did not know, own, and acknowledge, the disciples of Christ, but used them in the ill manner they did; their zeal was not according to knowledge, it was a blind and misguided one: and this is mentioned, not to extenuate or excuse their sin, though it shows they were not out of the reach of mercy, because they, as the apostle says of himself, “did it ignorantly in unbelief”, 1Ti_1:13; but as an argument with the disciples to bear their ill-usage with patience, and to pity them and pray for them.

John Gill Exposition of the Whole Bible.

16:3 The root cause of the hostility is again articulated (cf. 15:22) as a failure on the part of the Jews in “knowing” the Father. But here the failure of knowing Jesus is added to the cause of the persecution.263 Indeed, in the letters to the seven churches of Revelation, John goes far beyond saying that the Jews did not know God. He called the Jewish assemblies synagogues of Satan (Rev 2:9; 3:9). Persecution can draw strong reactions, and it did so in the Johannine community.264
___________
263 Some manuscripts read “do these things to you,” but this addition is probably the result of the influence of 15:21 and is not likely original. Cf. Metzger, Textual Commentary, 246.
264 For a helpful sociological discussion concerning in-groups and out-groups and how they pertain to this section of John, see Malina and Rohrbaugh, Social Science Commentary, 238–40.
Gerald L. Borchert, John 12–21, vol. 25B, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2002), 162.

Joh 16:4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you. “I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you.
Joh 16:5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’

The question still stands where is He going and where is He now? This is the question my Unitarian friends need to deal with in scripture. If Jesus is a divine idea or a simple manifestation where is the Son now, what is He doing and who is coming back? Why would Jesus use this kind of language if he were simply one in person? Worse yet how confusing is it to be sent from some “who” and then Jesus becomes? In the view of the Orthodox Church established 2000 years ago we have one “who “and three “what’s” this distinction is presented throughout the New Testament.

16:3–4. The world will persecute Jesus’ followers because they have not known the Father or Me. They do not recognize the Father at work in the words and deeds of Jesus. The Jewish people, for example, had a certain knowledge of God through the Law, but that knowledge was not a saving knowledge for God said their “hearts go astray and they have not known My ways” (Ps. 95:8–10).
Jesus gave this warning to His disciples about coming persecution in order to strengthen their faith. By recognizing His knowledge of the future they would grow in their confidence in Him. Jesus did not give them this warning before because the world’s hatred was directed against Him. He shielded them with His personal presence, V 2, p 328 but now they would be His body on earth (Eph. 1:22–23).
______________

Gerald L. Borchert, John 12–21, vol. 25B, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2002), 162.
Edwin A. Blum, “John,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, vol. 2 (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 327–328.

Joh 16:6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Jesus refers to the helper that is coming but he can’t come unless Jesus leaves and returns to the Father. Jesus defines the role of the Holy Spirit regarding a conviction of sin and unbelief. If we let the main things be the plain things and the plain things become the main things Scripture shows us three persons and their roles in this world. Jesus plainly states that he will go to the Father and we will no longer see him. Jesus is going to the Father this would describe a place and a person where Jesus is intending to be. This language is the same language we use, and when I describe I’m going to someone’s place to see them it makes sense only in the context of what I’m about to do. Jesus did not use a metaphor or some hidden meaning in his statement.

4. “But because I have said these things unto you,” He adds, “sorrow hath filled your heart.” He saw, indeed, what effect these words of His were producing in their hearts; for having not yet within them the spiritual consolation, which they were afterwards to have by the Holy Spirit, what they still saw objectively in Christ they were afraid of losing; and because they could have no doubt they were about to lose Him whose announcements were always true, their human feelings were saddened, because their carnal view of Him was to be left a blank. But He knew what was most expedient for them, because that inward sight, wherewith the Holy Spirit was yet to comfort them, was undoubtedly superior; not by bringing a human body into the bodies of those who saw, but by infusing Himself into the hearts of those who believed. And then He adds, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away. For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you:” as if He had said, It is expedient for you that this form of a servant be taken away from you; as the Word made indeed flesh I dwell among you; but I would not that ye should continue to love me carnally, and, content with such milk, desire to remain infants always. “It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you.” If I withdraw not the tender nutriment wherewith I have nourished you, ye will acquire no keen relish of solid food; if ye adhere in a carnal way to the flesh, ye will not have room for the Spirit. For what is this, “If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you”? Was it that He could not send Him while located here Himself? Who would venture to say so? Neither was it, that where He was, thence the Other had withdrawn, or that He had so come from the Father as that He did not still abide with the Father. And still further, how could He, even when having His own abode on earth, be unable to send Him, who we know came and remained upon Him at His baptism;1 yea, more, from whom we know that He was never separable? What does it mean, then, “If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;” but that ye cannot receive the Spirit so long as ye continue to know Christ after the flesh? Hence one who had already been made a partaker of the Spirit says, “Though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [Him] no more.”2 For now even the very flesh of Christ he did not know in a carnal way, when brought to a spiritual knowledge of the Word that had been made flesh. And such, doubtless, did the good Master wish to intimate, when He said, “If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.”
5. But with Christ’s bodily departure, both the Father and the Son, as well as the Holy Spirit, were spiritually present with them. For had Christ departed from them in such a sense that it would be in His place, and not along with Him, that the Holy Spirit would be present in them, what becomes of His promise when He said, “Lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world;”3 and, I and the Father “will come unto him, and will make Our abode with him;”4 seeing that He also promised that He would send the Holy Spirit in such a way that He would be with them for ever? In this way it was, on the other hand, that seeing they were yet out of their present carnal or animal condition to become spiritual, with undoubted certainty also were they yet to have in a more comprehensive way both the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But in no one are we to believe that the Father is present without the Son and the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the Son without the Holy Spirit, or the Son without the Father and the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit without the Father and the Son, or the Father and the Holy Spirit without the Son; but wherever any one of Them is, there also is the Trinity, one God. But here the Trinity had to be suggested in such a way that, although there was no diversity of essence, yet the personal distinction of each one separately should be presented to notice; where those who have a right understanding can never imagine a separation of natures.
6. But that which follows, “And when He is come, He will convince the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, indeed, because they believe not on me; but of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye shall see me no more; and of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged” (vers. 8–11); as if it were sin simply not to believe on Christ; and as if it were very righteousness not to see Christ; and as if that were the very judgment, that the prince of this world, that is, the devil, is judged: all this is very obscure, and cannot be included in the present discourse, lest brevity only increase the obscurity; but must rather be deferred till another occasion for such explanation as the Lord may enable us to give.
___________________________
Augustine of Hippo, “Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John,” in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series: St. Augustin: Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. John Gibb and James Innes, vol. 7 (New York: Christian Literature Company, 1888), 367.
1 Chap. 1:32.
2 2 Cor. 5:16.
3 Matt. 28:20.
4 Chap. 14:23.
Augustine of Hippo, “Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel According to St. John,” in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series: St. Augustin: Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. John Gibb and James Innes, vol. 7 (New York: Christian Literature Company, 1888), 367–368.

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:16 “A little while, and you will see me no longer; and again a little while, and you will see me.”

When we have the Spirit of truth we have with us as well the Son and the Father. Jesus tells his disciples there is much more for them to learn, and when his promised Spirit comes he will guide them in the truth. Jesus makes clear the role that each of the persons of the Trinity perform, the Spirit glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, the Father sends the Son and the Spirit. Jesus tells the disciples all that the Father has is his, and he the Father will take what Jesus has the Father will take and declare it to the disciples.

14. He shall glorify me; for he shall receive of mine and show it unto you—Thus the whole design of the Spirit’s office is to glorify Christ—not in His own Person, for this was done by the Father when He exalted Him to His own right hand—but in the view and estimation of men. For this purpose He was to “receive of Christ”—all the truth relating to Christ—“and show it unto them,” or make them to discern it in its own light. The subjective nature of the Spirit’s teaching—the discovery to the souls of men of what is Christ outwardly—is here very clearly expressed; and, at the same time, the vanity of looking for revelations of the Spirit which shall do anything beyond throwing light in the soul upon what Christ Himself is, and taught, and did upon earth.
15. All things that the Father hath are mine—a plainer expression than this of absolute community with the Father in all things cannot be conceived, though the “all things” here have reference to the things of the Kingdom of Grace, which the Spirit was to receive that He might show it to us. We have here a wonderful glimpse into the inner relations of the Godhead.
16. A little while, and ye shall not see me; and again a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father—The joy of the world at their not seeing Him seems to show that His removal from them by death was what He meant; and in that case, their joy at again seeing Him points to their transport at His reappearance amongst them on His Resurrection, when they could no longer doubt His identity. At the same time the sorrow of the widowed Church in the absence of her Lord in the heavens, and her transport at His personal return, are certainly here expressed.
_____________________
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), Jn 16:14–16.

Joh 16:17 So some of his disciples said to one another, “What is this that he says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see me, and again a little while, and you will see me’; and, ‘because I am going to the Father’?”
Joh 16:18 So they were saying, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We do not know what he is talking about.”
Joh 16:19 Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’?
Joh 16:20 Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.

We have so much to learn of our God, his Son and the Holy Spirit. Holy! Holy! Holy! Art thou Lord, God almighty!

Advertisements

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: