hotrodhell

Is God really dead, if so have we killed him?

In Apologetics, Christ, Christian, Christianity, Prayer, Satan, Saved on March 24, 2009 at 12:30 am

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Robert-

I don’t have the time to read all the posts but I believe I get the gist of how this is going. All I have to say is the Christ Jesus, or Jesus Christ, or whatever you want to call him, spent a lot of time with Mary Magdalene, a noted whore, and he, being a man, had a xxxx, he also drank wine…. see where this is going??? Get over it people–sex is good, god is dead, well, Jesus is dead, and god doesn’t exist. Now go find a drunk girl, make her XXX, and find a new one next week.

 

Robert-

completely disagree with your friend Dan. There is no need to invoke a higher being to develop a moral code. One can develop logically enough out of necessity. I agree not to beat you so I don’t get beaten. I agree to help you gather food while you’re sick because you’ll help me when I’m sick. The necessary fragility of being human can easily lay the foundation for the development of a moral code–naturally starting primitive, but over time getting complex.

 

Chris-

Yeah, I agree B…. and that’s one of topics that started this whole thing. I was trying to argue in another blog that many of our moral ideas are most likely grounded in biology (in light of many studies in sociobiology, psychology, and observation in other species). Most other ‘moral’ ideas, like you, I think can be reasoned out. But I’m … getting hit with the tried and true ‘moral relativism’ argument. The most problematic assumption I’ve seen, is that there is this assumption that there IS some absolute moral truth/standard out there. Who ever said there was? Your ‘moral’ assessment of one situation would look absurd in the light of another. What if relativism is the way it is? Sometime I feel like people just don’t want to accept that many things in life are quite fluid, indefinite, and not easily spelled out in a book or summed up in a few brief ideas.Things such as ethics and morals are quite complex once you move out of simple situations or free yourself from overly simplistic reasoning (I’m not implying anything, just making a point). I think that there are many people in this world who would like everything nicely spelled out, black and white, and handed to them. Religion does this in many respects; regardless of which one we are talking about. My two previous sentences also leads into how people align themselves in politics. Just speculating, but what if the differences in politics and how people are always trying to standardize things, just comes down to some wiring difference in those that have a more ‘agrarian’ brain? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1196554/posts (The previous link does not directly relate to what I said, but is along the same lines) So in agreement with you B….., I think that morals stand upon themselves without invoking some higher power/being. If what they said was true, then we should see some actual empirical evidence that those who follow God being more ethical, happy, and more fulfilled. Stereotypes aside, I think that the data would show otherwise or show that there is no correlation. We have the same central issue with people invoking a higher power/God/some intelligent designer with Evolution. The natural processes alone stand on themselves

 

Frank-

ummm… I read this, and I read Ben’s rebuttal.. and I must suggest that there is little to no hope in changing the mind of one who is so full of “faith” and devotion. –go figure, “faith” has the universal effect of putting blinder’s on people ability to perceive other possibilities etc.
Progress in ethics and moral evaluation is ongoing and progress is being made:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position and there are more… (but I don’t have time to list now.) I very much appreciate and support your stance and your efforts Chris! Cya!;-) Frank

 

Ben-

Thanks for weighing in on the conversation guys! I talked to Chris this weekend and wanted to summarize a few points before discussing what was written today. Note: I spend the time writing these points because I care about you guys and want the best for you, which is the love of God. Both Chris and I agree that the truth will lead to happiness, peace, joy, etc … After this point; we disagree largely on what is the truth. Jesus Christ said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” John 14:6 (Holman CSB). So we call Him the truth. When you live His way, you are living the truth. This verse states where Jesus is. The truth is alive in my life and is directly visible by the goodness, joy, happiness, gentleness, peace, love, patience, self-control, and kindness that have resulted in Him. Some of you have experienced these results yourself in your life because of the truth, but still yet you do not completely trust Him. I know how that life is. I was an atheist then agnostic for 30 years of my life. And still as a Christian, I am not a perfect person like Jesus, so you also still see sin in my life that leads to consequences. But I still must trust the truth and love Him with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength because the truth will free me from ultimate destruction or the penalties / consequences of my sin. I can not save myself from this end…only the truth can save me, though I don’t disserve it because I still sin. This ultimate end or consequence results because God is just and must punish wrong actions. All of you have gotten as taste of what sin can do. The truth is that sin will get worse when you don’t trust Him and the penalties more extreme. When you place your trust in the truth (Christ), you do not have to pay the most extreme penalty, because Christ already paid for it and God is merciful. This purchase is free to everyone who believes in Christ. In the love of Christ, He gives you strength to turn away from sin and wrong actions, which leads more and more to happiness, peace, etc…until you reach the utmost called heaven. The truth can be hard to believe in the U.S. these days, where everything has a cost and the truth is convoluted with details (not to mention hatred and evil). It is easy to get lost in the details. So, the first step is open up your heart in love and reach out your hand to Christ. If you ever want to love anyone truly in life, you have to first reach out your heart to the truth and trust Him. I testify to the truth of Jesus Christ. Do you consider me morally right or wrong for doing so? What have you determined as the consequences to my trust? How does trust and love of the truth fit into your code of ethics? What will move you to not commit wrong actions? Does just knowing the truth lead you to right actions? How do you love ideas which only relatively express reality and are vague and convoluted and yet to be determined by science? How are you ever going to love anyone in your right actions based on an idea that you are still waiting to be determined in 1,000 years by some supercomputer? How can you trust your ideas when they are constantly changing from day to day? Is not your morality on shaky ground or based on a foundation that has never or may never exist? What are you waiting for science to determine? What if science determines that humans require the love and reverence of Christ in order to be saved from sin? How long will you wait for that determination of the truth? Will it be too late for you? What if you are wrong by not trusting in Christ? Can you determine that moral decision rationally?

 

Dan-

I don’t know that I can add much to Ben’s input or explanation. This much I know I was lost now I am found, I was blind now I can see, I was dead now I am alive. Of course I am speaking spiritually and personally for me. If you have found the peace that passes understanding please share it and explain. If you know that no matter what you are loved by the very person who should hate you based on your rejection of him please tell me. If you have a path that leads to a perfect eternal life that has no pain, hurt or suffering for all time and eternity we need it. In my own life for the record I am 51 soon to be 52, divorced, remarried, 3 married young adult children, 3 grandkids with one more on the way. I have had a chance to create a few regrets along the way and few things to celebrate as well. Like many from my generation we came of age in the 70’s , free love, fun drugs (cocaine was reputed to not be addictive just a party drug and sex enhancer) divorce rates that climbed from around 25% to over 50%, we were called the “ME” generation. The sixties had revived Nietzsche declaration God is dead and we killed him. In the 70’s we decided since we killed Him we might as well party. So I bought in for a while, went nowhere and ended going to work. I take it from Ben most if not all of you are at least college educated(congratulations that is a great achievement) well that makes you all smarter than me. The only answer I have to all the conversations going around is when I die and that is a universal truth we are all going to die. I will resurrect from the dead and live for eternity in Heaven because I got tired of trying to be my own god, make my own rules and foolishly think I could control my destiny. Maybe you’re better at it than I was or maybe you’re going to run into the same emptiness I did. I am inserting some scripture that has proved to be truer than anything I have ever read. You can think of me as ignorant, misguided, foolish, close minded, etc. that’s OK. I have found the advantage of getting older is it really doesn’t matter as long I have found ultimate truth. God is waiting for you; he requires all of for all of him. If you bow your knee to him and claim your will be done it will be the greatest experience you will ever know. If you straighten your spine, stiffen your neck and claim my will be done! He says so be it!!

I would that all of you come to Jesus and seek him, the reason for input in this discussion is because Jesus loves me and to not share it would be the greatest moral failure I could have. If it weren’t for his love and forgiveness I would be the biggest pagan you ever met.

 

(Gal 5:14 HCSB)  For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

 

(Gal 5:19-23 HCSB)  Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance–as I told you before–that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

 

(Col 1:2-22 HCSB)  And you were once alienated and hostile in mind because of your evil actions. But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him–

 

(Rom 3:23 HCSB)  For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

(Rom 6:23 HCSB)  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

(Rom 5:8 HCSB)  But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us!

 

(Rom 10:13 HCSB)  For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

(Rom 10:9-10 HCSB)  if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

(John 14:-3-5 HCSB)  “Your heart must not be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you. If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  1. From Scot following the conversations:

    We tend to focus today only on Christ death and what it meant to us and we tend to neglect the second part of Christ. His life while he lived.

    Jerry Bridges wrote:
    “For the most part Jesus’ life of perfect obedience has been seen only as a necessary precondition to his death. The truth is, however, Jesus not only died for us, He also lived for us. That is, all that Christ did in both his life and death, He did in our place as our substitute.”

    Jesus boldly asked his disciples

    Joh 8:46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?

    We read and see where Jesus was tempted by the Devil himself, one on one. Matt 4:1-11

    Toward the end of his life, in one of his many confrontations with His chief antagonists, the Jewish religious leaders, He could unself-consciously and without any pretentiousness say:

    Joh 8:29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”

    Such a claim must include not only Jesus’ outward actions and speech, but also his inward thoughts

    Psa 139:1 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
    Psa 139:2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
    Psa 139:3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
    Psa 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

    Even more important, it must include his motives, for God not only knows our thoughts but understands our motives as well 1Chr 28:9 and 1 Cor 4:5

    1Ch 28:9 “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

    1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

    What I am getting at is that there is Sin and we have to look at it in the actions of Active and Passive Obedience in Christ Life.

    The Law contains both precepts and penalties. The precepts are to be fully obeyed, and the penalties are imposed for the least infraction of the precepts.

    The Law of God set forth in scripture is a transcript of God’s own moral nature. When we think of God’s holiness we usually think of his infinite moral purity. That is correct, but there is more to it than that. The basic meaning of the word Holy is “separate” and when used of God it means, among other things, that God is eternally separate from any degree of sin. He does not sin himself and he cannot abide or condone sin in his moral creatures.

    Instead the scriptures teach us that God’s holiness responds to sin with immutable and eternal hatred. To put it plainly, God hates sin.

    Psa 7:11 God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day.
    Psa 5:5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.

    So, we see that God always hates sin and inevitably expresses his wrath against it.

    The cross, then, is an expression of God’s wrath toward sin as well as his love to us. It expresses his holiness in his determination to punish sin, even at the cost of his own Son. And it expresses his love in sending his Son to bear the punishment we so justly deserved.

    Why the cross? you might ask. God’s holiness demanded it as punishment for our sins, and God’s love provided it to save us from our sins.

    We cannot begin to understand the true significance of the cross unless we understand something of the holiness of God and the depth of our sin. It is a continuing sense of the imperfection of our obedience, arising from the constant presence and the remaining power of our indwelling sin that drives us who are believers to the absolute dependence on the grace of God given to us through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

    As we consider the work or life of Christ that he did for us we need to keep in mind that our sin is what necessitated it.

    Back to Active and Passive Obedience;

    It is the Law that was fully imprinted on Adam’s heart as part of his being created in God’s image. It is the same Law that the apostle Paul said is still written on people’s hearts regardless of how obscured it may now be.

    Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
    Rom 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
    Rom 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
    Rom 2:15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
    Rom 2:16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    It is a universal law applicable to all people of all times. When the Paul wrote that Christ was “born under the Law”

    Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

    Paul was referring to this universal moral will of God. Jesus was born under the Law because he came to perfectly obey it in our place. He came to do what we, because of our sinful nature, could not do. It is this perfect obedience to the moral will of God that constitutes his active obedience.

    As our representative, he not only was obligated to obey the precepts of the Law, but to suffer its penalty for our violation of it. This obligation he freely assumed in obedience to the Father’s will. So Jesus actively obeyed the Father’s universal moral will, which we call the Law of God and he passively obeyed the Father’s specific will for him, namely to suffer the penalty for our sin.

    In Hebrews the writer referred to this specific will of God for Jesus when he wrote,

    Heb 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    So it is the suffering of Christ in our place that constitutes his passive obedience. But we should not limit his suffering just to the hours he hung on the cross. It actually began at his incarnation when he laid aside his divine glory and assumed a human nature subject to the same physical weaknesses and infirmities we are exposed to.

    Jesus life was one of suffering obedience and obedient suffering. He suffered throughout his life and he was obedient throughout his life, even in the face of the suffering he was to endure and did endured. We see his perfect obedience when he prayed the night before he was to be hung on the cross when he prayed:

    Mat 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

    In fact Jesus had active obedience even in his death when the Hebrew writer says:

    Heb 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    Then again we read:

    Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Joh 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

    In one sense, Jesus was as active on the cross as he had been in his life up to the cross.

    We tend to make the main focus of biblical teaching on the work of Christ concerns his death. That is because of the terrible damage that sin did to our relationship with God. It violated his justice, aroused his wrath, stirred up his enmity, and brought us under his curse. It resulted in our becoming spiritually dead, in bondage to Satan, and under the dominion of sin.

    Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
    Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
    Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

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